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Author Topic: What is Reality?  (Read 6157 times)
jrkulmer
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« on: May 28, 2009, 08:07:19 PM »

I have to disagree with WA2s point on alcohol removing the sense of reality from the artist, as we are forgetting what we sense, what we see, smell, hear, hell anything, is not reality. It is a constantly updated model of reality of which from our brain can pick what it sees as useful. We have our current "sense" of reality, because after millions of years of evolution, it is the model which benefits our survival most.
Is it not so, that now, we as a species have reached a point where we are able to think outside of the realms of our basic needs for survival? So our sense of reality is becoming obsolete; as we progress and continue to break the barriers of our understanding, and our knowledge of reality, or rather I should say, how we percieve reality is becoming a hindrance to our potential for art work.
We have been producing art for millenia with this model of reality firmly imprinted in our heads, so does it not show diversity in art to experiment with what we are able to produce when we are subjected to an altered view of reality?
I think it is time we push the boundries of our capabilities as artists, and experimentation is often, if not always the way forwards. Seeing as I am fully aware we will never percieve reality in its truest form, the only way, short of evolution, to expand our knowledge of the truest form of reality, is to see it from as many different viewpoints as possible.
I am not advocating that we should all go out and take heroin by the way, merely that as artists we should try and experience reality in as many different forms as possible, in order to make individual and, contradictory as it may sound, subjective art.
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« Reply #1 on: May 28, 2009, 08:58:01 PM »

I have to disagree with WA2s point on alcohol removing the sense of reality from the artist, as we are forgetting what we sense, what we see, smell, hear, hell anything, is not reality. It is a constantly updated model of reality of which from our brain can pick what it sees as useful. We have our current "sense" of reality, because after millions of years of evolution, it is the model which benefits our survival most.
Is it not so, that now, we as a species have reached a point where we are able to think outside of the realms of our basic needs for survival? So our sense of reality is becoming obsolete; as we progress and continue to break the barriers of our understanding, and our knowledge of reality, or rather I should say, how we percieve reality is becoming a hindrance to our potential for art work.
We have been producing art for millenia with this model of reality firmly imprinted in our heads, so does it not show diversity in art to experiment with what we are able to produce when we are subjected to an altered view of reality?
I think it is time we push the boundries of our capabilities as artists, and experimentation is often, if not always the way forwards. Seeing as I am fully aware we will never percieve reality in its truest form, the only way, short of evolution, to expand our knowledge of the truest form of reality, is to see it from as many different viewpoints as possible.
I am not advocating that we should all go out and take heroin by the way, merely that as artists we should try and experience reality in as many different forms as possible, in order to make individual and, contradictory as it may sound, subjective art.

+1

Excellent post. This broadens the debate in so many ways. Looking forward to seeing what all posters make of it.
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Emmeline Pankhurst
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« Reply #2 on: May 29, 2009, 05:42:45 PM »

So now we're discussing reality huh?
I disagree with jrkulmer (well I have to lol). Reality is what we perceive. Thats it. This computer screen in front of me is in reality. But so is the meaning behind the words brought up on the screen (no, not the backlight). Our perception of what we get from our senses are changing, and have been changed over time, but what ever our senses take in, our conscience or brain or whatever collates all together into something we can perceive, and that something is reality. If the sky turned pink and frogs rained down, that would be a big shift in what we perceived of the world, but its now the reality that we take part in. What you think in your head is your own reality,because it can't be shared (as yet). Art can be created only in reality. And it tries to show other people the reality apparent inside the artists head. If that artist has his brain befuddled with alcohol and such, then its a different reality, and not one originally perceived by our senses. Our senses, then, are our connection between the reality within us, and the collective reality shared by all. Now we could go into an arguement over what our senses actually are,like is our ability to speak a sense? That's why language is ineffective. It's difficult to get accross ones reality through speech alone without the help of other senses. Which is why its better in a book, because a book includeds all the metaphors and description. But it's still ineffective. We are shackled by language (and measurable time for that matter, eh Editor? Wink)
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jrkulmer
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« Reply #3 on: May 29, 2009, 06:15:33 PM »

Unfortunately, it may be the reality we percieve, but by heck, it aint reality in its fullest, truest form. Thats why i said it is best to try to see reality from as many different viewpoints as possible. You are clouded / shrouded in the belief that reality is what we make it. Reality is what is out there. Perception is the tiny fragment of relality which we are so privelaged to percieve. [not see, as i put. that was a stupid error lol]

What you are proposing is restriction of thought. You are saying we should be content with what we already can percieve, and that just because we cannot comprehend what else there is out there, (or rather - here) then the only reality is the one we sense. If you ask me, thats quite an arrogant view on things. We should be striving to understand the cosmos, not sit back saying; "If I can't percieve it, it isn't there."

Art can be created only in reality.

Yes, you are right, but the context in which you are saying this is wrong. You use the term "reality" here to mean "reality as we percieve it". This is obviously wrong, or else exactly how would people who are blind, or deaf, or are affected from any such sensory affliction be able to create art. They percieve reality in a completely different sense to most humans, and yet some of the greatest artists of our time were hindered by such afflictions.

If the sky turned pink and frogs rained down, that would be a big shift in what we perceived of the world

No, it honestly wouldn't. You are not talking about the reality we percieve at all here, or possibly I wasn't clear enough in what I said. If anything which we can sense happens in the world, it is still part of our perception. If a massive anus came down and sprinkled Qu'ran's all over the vatican, it is still within the realms of our understanding. I am talking about things we cannot comprehend; like how small an atom is, the way black holes work, the fact that we can only see a tiny tiny tiny amount of the electromagnetic spectrum as visible, and anything else that escapes our imagination.

I suggested that we need to push the boundries of our understanding, in order to push the boundries of art.
You suggested that we should stay within our little safety bubble of understanding, not pushing the boundries at all.

And I just have to contest that. Game on.
« Last Edit: May 29, 2009, 06:22:56 PM by jrkulmer » Logged

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« Reply #4 on: May 29, 2009, 07:50:38 PM »

You can see it from different viewpoints, but hell its impossible to truly empathize. And like I said, alcohol clouds the perception gives falsity. Reality is what we perceive.
And dammit man! I'm not proposing a restriction of thought! I would never do such a thing! I'm not saying we should be content with what what we perceive. The point is, our perception changes, but its not a matter of quantity. The more you know, your perception changes. You look at your reality in a different way, because of the aid of your increased knowledge. Hell man, knowledge is the great quest! (lol)

And yes, I know that blind, deaf or what ever can make great art. Because it's made in their reality. And shown to others. So people can catch a glimpse of their reality, but it's not a really gotten across, because true empathy isn't possible. That's what empathy is: getting a glimpse of someone else's reality. And you get an attempt of that through some types of art.

And for the average Joe, they wouldn't expect the sky to turn pink and frogs to rain down, so now they'd accept that as possible. It's become a part of their reality. How they see the world. It's within our realms of understanding, just not what you perceive as possible (if you're the average Joe, I know it would be possible just very very very unlikely).

And for heavens sake! I'M NOT OPPOSED TO PUSHING THE BOUNDARIES! I FULLY SUPPORT IT!!!!!!!!!QUOTE ME WHERE I'VE BEEN AGAINST IT!

P.S. If a massive anus came down and sprinkled Qur'ans all over the vatican,...phfhaa ah hah ha very good.

Ohh and other people get involved! I don't want this to be an argument between me and jrkulmer people! You might consider ragging it back to the topic at hand. Don't drink alcohol. It's very bad.
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jrkulmer
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« Reply #5 on: May 29, 2009, 09:27:06 PM »

The big flaw in your response is that you're losing the definition of reality....

Reality is NOT what you percieve, it is what IS.

You don't gain a false view of reality when drinking, because our "original view" of reality was never true in the first place; alcohol doesn't so much as cloud our perception; rather, it changes it. To further demonstrate this, I just know everyone loves a good old complicated metaphor Grin...

Percieving reality is like looking through a tiny hole, we only see a fragment of the object behind it; but every time we change our perception, the pinhole changes shape...

Changing the shape of the pinhole alters the view of the object; it doesn't distort it, as the object we're looking at is already distorted, because your looking at it through a frigging pinhole.

The object is, of course, reality.


Taking drugs (in every sense of drugs) is one way of changing the shape of the pinhole.
Knowledge is another.
Experience is another.
Sensory removal is another.
Evolution is another.
There are many ways of changing perception. So how can saying one is worse than the other, be constructive?

PS. People, JOIN IN!!!

PSS. New thread on the definition of reality, perhaps?
« Last Edit: May 29, 2009, 09:31:21 PM by jrkulmer » Logged

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« Reply #6 on: May 29, 2009, 09:49:39 PM »

Reality is seen and understood differently between people. A blind person doesn't experience reality as we do. So it nessescerily isn't what is. And besides, we could be stuck in the matrix waiting for Keanu Reaves to save us. Lips sealed. Then what is reality isn't reality. Maybe we're both using the wrong word. Maybe perception would be better for BOTH of us to use, rather than reality.

What do you mean it was never true in the first place? You centre around that, so please explain. Because I want to know why this computer screen I'm looking at is actually a floating perverted tellytubby and why it's looking at me with those weird suggestive eyes!

And alcohol doesn't change the view! It distorts it! Clouds it! Because you're still getting the same information from your senses, except the alcohol has twisted it into something different, which is not the original data sent. yes its the same reality, but its not the true reality. Opposite to your point.

And your list isn't the definitive list, so be careful when relying on it. Knowledge and the rest of it gives new meaning to reality, thereby giving you a new view. But alcohol doesn't give it new meaning. Because alcohol isn't information. It's like looking through a sheet of glass. Knowledge and stuff changes the view that gets through, from the original distorted view (by bumbs and ridges) and smoothing it out so instead of the picture being changed by the glass, you see what really is there. Alcohol is like frosting it. Covering it in a translucent material. Clouded.

And once this topic dies, I'm gonna kick off one about emotions...
« Last Edit: May 29, 2009, 10:05:21 PM by WA2 » Logged

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jrkulmer
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« Reply #7 on: May 29, 2009, 10:40:37 PM »

There is nothing I can say or do to convince you otherwise of this frankly clouded view you have yourself. However it won't stop me from trying...

When I say it isn't a true picture of reality, refer to back to my original post. It isn't a full picture of reality, because there are so many aspects of reality that we can never experience, such as any other part of the electromagnetic spectrum, e.g. we'll never see an x-ray or infrared truly, we'll never be able to comprehend the vastness of a black hole, or ever see an atom, or comprehend the various other dimensions...
The point I'm making is that reality is not subjective. There is ONLY ONE REALITY, no alternate realities, ONLY ONE.
However, how we experience it can be completely and utterly diverse.
Our perspectives are subjective.
If we ever want to understand what reality is in its truest form, we have to try and experience it in as many different forms as possible.
A true view of reality would be one where we can see and experience everything that is in front of us, not just merely understand them. I can't believe you still don't get this basic concept...

Remember what Ed was saying about sex in the class a few weeks back... That the act is nothing more... just an act. The only meaning is that of which we transcribe to it. The same applies to alcohol.

I can't believe you genuinely believe it shrouds our perspective, it doesn't! It changes it, and then you look at the change, and decide whether YOU think it is a good or a bad change. To draw a paralell, this is the equivalent of you saying:

"Sex is WRONG!"

Then me saying - "Sex is just sex, whether you think it is good or bad is subjective."

Its the same scenario, just with alcohol! Jesus!
« Last Edit: May 29, 2009, 10:48:05 PM by jrkulmer » Logged

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jrkulmer
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« Reply #8 on: May 29, 2009, 11:00:52 PM »

Sorry that was an angry post, but do you see what I'm saying, WA2?

I want you to more focus on the first half of the post though lol, the second half is more an angry rant. I don't want to talk about alcohol anymore until you understand, not agree mind, whats been said about reality. Smiley

I'm not saying your computer screen is a demented tellytubby or whatever... what you see is indeed true, but only a fragment of the truth that is really there. I may sound like a durandy bummer, but his theory of looking at the book from every angle before you see the truth - that is EXACTLY what I am trying to say...

Maybe I've completely fucked up by introducing the concept of true and false, but hopefully that will have been cleared up with the above ^^.

No?
« Last Edit: May 29, 2009, 11:16:07 PM by jrkulmer » Logged

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« Reply #9 on: May 30, 2009, 01:46:32 AM »

To refer back to the pinhole idea if I may, each individual being has a different view through that pinhole. Simply because each individual being has a different set of eyes. However, what is on the other side of that pinhole will always be the same thing. Therefore, reality is everything that is, though not necessarily observed or comprehensible by others.
« Last Edit: May 30, 2009, 02:00:48 AM by sinister_miss_nancy » Logged
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« Reply #10 on: May 30, 2009, 10:02:55 AM »

There is nothing I can say or do to convince you otherwise of this frankly clouded view you have yourself. However it won't stop me from trying...
 


You know James, that's a very obnoxious thing to say. Just because somebody doesn't agree with you doesn't make them a total dumbass. You do this time and time and again.
 I'm seeing it from a different perspective. Roll Eyes So there. That buggered your point up! Grin

And you know what? I get what you say, and fine, I'm man enough to say that. I agree now.

But the point at hand is alcohol. And I disagree here because alcohol is giving you a new view. It's covering up the original view!

And the second half of your post is balls. Just because Ed said it doesn't make it absolute fact. He isn't the all-knowing. That was his opinion. And it doesn't apply to alcohol, because alcohol actually screws up how you think. I think I'm right in saying that sex is just pleasurable, it doesn't make you drunk!

And we could have another lengthy discussion about sex, but not until we've finished this one, and covered emotions.
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jrkulmer
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« Reply #11 on: May 30, 2009, 01:40:55 PM »

Woo, high 5!!! That's all I was trying to say, that it's a different view. Rather than a shrouded one lol.

But cool, we can move on from reality noww Smiley

Can I ask one question to get the whole alcohol theme going again...

So why do you think an altered view of reality is such a bad thing?



PS and yeah sinister_miss_nancy thats moreorless exactly what I was trying to say, just wish I could've thought of the much easier, and shorter way of saying it, like you did lol. Grin

PSS. Yeah sorry, I went off on one, and looked like a right berk. Sad
« Last Edit: May 30, 2009, 01:49:51 PM by jrkulmer » Logged

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« Reply #12 on: May 31, 2009, 03:23:12 PM »

What do you mean it was never true in the first place? You centre around that, so please explain. Because I want to know why this computer screen I'm looking at is actually a floating perverted tellytubby and why it's looking at me with those weird suggestive eyes!

And alcohol doesn't change the view! It distorts it! Clouds it! Because you're still getting the same information from your senses, except the alcohol has twisted it into something different, which is not the original data sent. yes its the same reality, but its not the true reality. Opposite to your point.

And your list isn't the definitive list, so be careful when relying on it. Knowledge and the rest of it gives new meaning to reality, thereby giving you a new view. But alcohol doesn't give it new meaning. Because alcohol isn't information. It's like looking through a sheet of glass. Knowledge and stuff changes the view that gets through, from the original distorted view (by bumbs and ridges) and smoothing it out so instead of the picture being changed by the glass, you see what really is there. Alcohol is like frosting it. Covering it in a translucent material. Clouded.

Something about this winds me up. You say that alcohol clouds your perception of reality because it interrupts the data that is hitting these survival honed senses we possess. However surely knowledge and wisdom do this also? The information that goes in is run through an array of functions built from logic that we have acquired. Isn't ferality perhaps the best way to exist because you view it as is? As soon as you throw mathematics and language in to the mix, which happen to be the most primitive way of deconstructing the universe, you change permenantly how you can percieve the Universe.
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Emmeline Pankhurst
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« Reply #13 on: June 02, 2009, 05:02:11 PM »

One's perception of reality? Cheesy

And how does knowledge and wisdom iterrupt data eing sent along the synapses? Alcohol is the actuall substance that gets between 'em. I'll get some evidence to back it up, don't worry. The array of logic is what enhances it. Inteliugence is made up of the new connections between the neurones, but alcohol blocks these new connections. But this should be taken back to the original thread.

Dunno what ferality is, I'll look it up.
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